tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2540360308013071801.post1747242819029395294..comments2023-03-26T03:20:43.478-05:00Comments on Version53: Wikileaks and the Diplomatic CablesRWhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14416316296228157208noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2540360308013071801.post-39573725256851890932010-12-02T01:06:09.323-06:002010-12-02T01:06:09.323-06:00The only concern I have is whether or not people w...The only concern I have is whether or not people will be in actual physical danger as a result of this information being released.<br /><br />I also think that part of diplomatic relations is finding enough dirt on the other parties so that you can use that to negotiate. Hell, that's what most negotiation is. And that information should stay private or else our negotiations have no weight.Avitablehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08541188721193079705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2540360308013071801.post-12042854153690361522010-12-01T21:09:39.394-06:002010-12-01T21:09:39.394-06:00i really, honestly dont know where i'm at.
ser...i really, honestly dont know where i'm at.<br />seriously.<br /><br />maybe cause i'm too busy laughing at everybody else who <i>does</i> know where they are at.<br /><br />and julian???<br />yeah, you said it:look at him.<br />he <i>really</i> needs this, and may be all that motivates him for what i know.Ginohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09606046924332159076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2540360308013071801.post-79499672150709451662010-12-01T20:27:11.874-06:002010-12-01T20:27:11.874-06:00well for me, gino, I guess I'm in glee.
If on...well for me, gino, I guess I'm in glee.<br /><br />If only because it really puts government in its place. You know there's a real point at which libertarianism becomes anarchism, and they are very much linked historically. So I don't always know if folks recognize that - when they say they're a libertarian - they're really saying government is basically something WE need to control and not the other way around.<br /><br />It's probably too idealistic on my part, but one can hope that these diplomatic services deal with each other more honestly instead of talking nice and then going back to their side of the room and going "did you smell his BREATH?? OMG."<br /><br />And, as we are in a free society, we deserve to know what the people who technically work for us are getting us into. If nothing else than to be able to make intelligent decisions about whose policies we support and whose we don't in election times. It would help not to have soundbites and what merely seems intuitive as a basis for that decision.<br /><br />Especially if the truth is counter0intuitive, which the documents are proving; from North Korea's actual situation to Saudi Arabia being in line with Israel on a number of things.<br /><br />As for Julian... I doubt he's getting any extra action from this... I mean look at him...RWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14416316296228157208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2540360308013071801.post-8601225405744442302010-12-01T19:09:32.465-06:002010-12-01T19:09:32.465-06:00@brian: i wasnt responding to you.
but as for nit ...@brian: i wasnt responding to you.<br />but as for nit wits, we're getting them anyway.<br />and we will continue to do so.<br /><br />@RW: i made no mention of how his life is going, comfort wise. i dont care, either.<br />(although, the increase in fame is problay getting him laid a little easier, which i'm sure he likes)<br /><br />all i'm saying is that he is in it for himself i.e. his own selfish reasons, whatever they are, or how altruistice he wants us to see him.<br /><br />i have no opinion on whether wikileaks is a good or bad thing. some folks are justifiably upset, and others justifiably gleeful.<br />i'm basically enjoying the theater, and leaving it mostly at that.<br /><br />@ Brian (again):as for russia,etal: saying it and doing it are not the same. and i also DID say that he would gain additional cred with me if/when.<br />i'll keep waiting...<br /><br />enjoy voting for sarahGinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09606046924332159076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2540360308013071801.post-58597287662794149102010-12-01T18:18:29.538-06:002010-12-01T18:18:29.538-06:00dave Ideas mean something. When they're expres...dave Ideas mean something. When they're expressed they come to a nexus. We don't always get the results we seek. People need to really look at what their high-minded ideals end up supporting.<br /><br />It has happened in the past. People with high principles are praised to high heaven, but they are also used by the cynical powers that be to justify their unscrupulous behavior.<br /><br />It's like people who sacrifice children to the great god Mucous, and for them to be defended by the naive on the grounds that we shouldn't trample on other people's "freedom of religion."<br /><br />And you've still never seen the docs have you?RWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14416316296228157208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2540360308013071801.post-11148600828489333752010-12-01T18:17:38.226-06:002010-12-01T18:17:38.226-06:00@ Gino: when I say something along the lines of &q...@ Gino: when I say something along the lines of "the facade that the ruling classes of the world are any better or any more well-suited to run things," what I <i>don't</i> mean is that I'm cool with any dimwit running the global empire as it currently exists. <br /><br />I mean that the state itself should be relegated to its proper, peripheral role in the lives of free men and women. And I think that is more likely to happen in a world where regular people are confronted with how petty, tyrannical, ineffective, and self-interested our rulers tend to be. <br /><br />In other words, it's an anarchist's sentiment, not a populist's. <br /><br />Regarding Russia, China, etc. Based on everything I've read about (and by) Assange, he would/will gleefully publish internal documents from those countries if and when someone gives them to him. Wikileaks is a conduit, not an espionage operation.Brianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06799024060528185282noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2540360308013071801.post-49719252750972185362010-12-01T17:53:34.598-06:002010-12-01T17:53:34.598-06:00I find it absurd that you would think I am an apol...I find it absurd that you would think I am an apologist for any wrong-doing or corruption based on anything in my comment, but as you are sitting in my chair, who am I to argue?<br /><br />Except to say that relationships are built from personal exchanges that often have nothing to do with the business at hand, and the <i>"OMG that guy's girlfriend"</i> bullshit is simply part of the process. Just try building meaningful contacts and relationships without it. See how far a discussion of the weather will get you. TO THAT EXTENT ONLY, I disagree with personal correspondence being drug through the press like Lindsay Lohan's underwear (or lack thereof). That's nothing more than tabloid journalism at its worst. You may not care about Julian Assange's motives, but I do. Claims of noble aspirations that reveal as so much bullshit lead me to discount his presentation and analysis of the material... <b><i>not the material itself.</i></b><br /><br />To say that I'm "content with corruption and lies" because I think "personality gropes" are best left off the table is a scary leap which is completely unjustified. At no point in my comment did I ever defend any diplomat from any wrong-doing. At no time did I ever say corruption deserves diplomatic immunity. And I never said that duplicity shouldn't be exposed. On the contrary, I specifically said that wrong-doing being done in my name <b><i>should</i></b> be exposed and we have a right to know.<br /><br />Perhaps I give people too much credit by remaining hopeful that there are at least SOME honest people out there trying to do right by this country. Perhaps I am being too optimistic that they deserve the expectation of the smallest amount of privacy and latitude while doing so. But I refuse to unilaterally demonize every single person with ties to diplomatic relations and brand them a criminal deserving of public humiliation. And that extends not just to them, but the other people mentioned (though, personally, if I were Putin I'd think that being called Batman was awesome as hell). I may be losing faith in the system, but I'm not going to vilify those who still have hope that working within the system will effect positive change. Just as I wouldn't vilify somebody for liking broccoli (much as they deserve it).<br /><br />Anarchy is the absence of authority. Not the absence of respect. Or decency. Or dignity. Or understanding.<br /><br />If that line of thinking leads you to not take me seriously in a discussion, it's probably for the best.Dave2https://www.blogger.com/profile/15376066552003396828noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2540360308013071801.post-38847115137042078392010-12-01T17:45:43.811-06:002010-12-01T17:45:43.811-06:00Oh wait, Assenge is in hiding because Interpol is ...Oh wait, Assenge is in hiding because Interpol is after him all of a sudden. Yeah. I'm sure he didn't think THAT would happen...RWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14416316296228157208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2540360308013071801.post-11785923129177279162010-12-01T17:43:21.069-06:002010-12-01T17:43:21.069-06:00I think the docs pretty much show exactly what oth...I think the docs pretty much show exactly what other countries are run by. So the condition you lay down about "in it for himself" is kind of puny. Is he getting rich from this? Is he living in a nice house and drinking wine and entertaining guests? <br /><br />Until I hear about how the guy's life is just soooo wonderful because he's getting so rich on this stuff I think I'll have to take your comment as a kind of willful snit. "Wah, he's just in it for himself" type thing. Show me his material gain on his shit and your argument would hold some water. Or are you saying "he just wants to be famous"? If that's the case, I'd need to have it explained just how you know that, for a fact.<br /><br />And you already know I'm voting for Sarah palin in 2012. I'm going to depend on absolute assholes to be in power when I go for my riches.RWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14416316296228157208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2540360308013071801.post-34642106029341656552010-12-01T17:35:28.852-06:002010-12-01T17:35:28.852-06:00in some ways, this makes the case for those who wa...in some ways, this makes the case for those who want sarah palin to be president.<br /><br />remember? she's too stupid, too uneducated, hasnt read enuf books, etc... to be a head of state?<br /><br />looks so much like the folks who run shit now, in every nation, are no better than sarah, but with better PR...<br /><br />...and good enuf reason to not put so much faith in govt at all.<br /><br />but i would believe in assange's <br />bravery a lot more if he leaked out some russian or chinese secrets next time. <br /><br />until then, he's just in for himself, no different than the folks he's dishing on.Ginohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09606046924332159076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2540360308013071801.post-3683889885315299472010-12-01T17:08:17.495-06:002010-12-01T17:08:17.495-06:00I was thinking Copernicus. But then I'm Polish...I was thinking Copernicus. But then I'm Polish, so I'm a little biased...RWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14416316296228157208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2540360308013071801.post-63301005684391921452010-12-01T16:51:39.820-06:002010-12-01T16:51:39.820-06:00It is going to be very difficult to maintain the f...It is going to be very difficult to maintain the facade that the ruling classes of the world are any better or any more well-suited to run things than the rest of us in a world where radical transparency is the norm. That scares the hell out of people...and it should.<br /><br />In my more optimistic visions of the future, Assange will be mentioned in the same breath as Guttenberg.Brianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06799024060528185282noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2540360308013071801.post-63643430806811137102010-12-01T16:11:11.546-06:002010-12-01T16:11:11.546-06:00I can fix the posting problems, dave. I can even p...I can fix the posting problems, dave. I can even present a case to explain to people things I'm seeimg from my point of view. <br /><br />I can try to make my arguments as to why someone should understand. But I can't sit behind your chair and understand it for you.<br /><br />You start off by saying you have lost all faith in the established order and that a nod at anarchy could be a very satisfying thing, but (it seems) because you have some kind of personal dislike for the guy you revert to being an apologist for lying bastard regimes that tell their people one thing and conduct their affairs in secret with the potentiality of the consequences not being felt by anyone but riff raff like you and me.<br /><br />It occurs to me that if you think the basis of the leaks rests on personality gropes it's just too obvious you never got through the DoS regimen to see what the docs actually looked like.<br /><br />The corruption of the Karzai regime at the center of our real concerns the degree of which is not revealed and in fact swept under the rug while we told "we can work with these people." Not tpo mentionthe outright collusion by the Pakistani military "running withthe hare and hunting with the fox", playing both ends against the middle so they can keep the pipeline of our money going into their corruption.<br /><br />And since when does corruption deserve diplomatic immunity? And since when is it okay to lie to people about what's happening<br /><br />If you're going to take any little satisfaction from a good old swipe across the bow of the established order's specious policies and practices, then don't become an apologist for them in the same breath. "Complex dealings of international politics" my ass. It's about time the machinations of the elitists in this world get exposed for the mendacious crap they are - and have been. And quite frankly I don't care if it's an "arrogant, self-serving asshole airing other people's dirty laundry for sport and a claim to fame" who tipped the dish over.<br /><br />Good for him. But don't tell me a little anarchy is a good thing and then spout the party line about the poor beleaguered diplomats that have to work in trying circumstances. Usually after the caviar.<br /><br />Maybe you can live with a duplicitous government and the results of their corruption and lies to the point where you can stand there bare-faced and self-righteous about the poor difficulties facing our noble diplomatic corps. I can't. They're obviously all OMG about this guy's girlfriend or something.<br /><br />It's a breath of fresh air to me. <br /><br />How are we supposed to construct informed opinions about what our country is getting itself involved in if one thing is happening here but it isn't what's actually happening there?<br /><br />Anything else is democracy in name only. But if that's what you like, have at it. But don't talk to me about the internet privacy agreement they're all about to slam on us with the backing of the Obama administration after this. I'm going to have to not take you very seriously next time you bring it up.RWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14416316296228157208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2540360308013071801.post-76415394981538341602010-12-01T14:47:33.290-06:002010-12-01T14:47:33.290-06:00Hmmm... something is seriously messed up with your...Hmmm... something is seriously messed up with your comments today. Posting gives me an error and multiple posts?Dave2https://www.blogger.com/profile/15376066552003396828noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2540360308013071801.post-22519496061937768612010-12-01T14:45:24.181-06:002010-12-01T14:45:24.181-06:00As somebody who has lost hope that our fractured, ...As somebody who has lost hope that our fractured, partisan government will ever be able to come together and dig us out of the mess we're in, I am close to embracing anarchy as the only way we can ever escape from this bloated, non-functional system that's arisen out of some pretty remarkable ideals. With that in mind, I couldn't care less if documents sent and negotiated on my behalf as an American citizen are "leaked." If a citizen is being made party to something, they have a right to know what that is. Sure there are some things which must be kept secret for our security and safety, but personal observations on non-security matters don't fall into that arena.<br /><br />That being said, I hold Julian Assange to no higher level of heroism than I do a tabloid gossip columnist. He releases sensitive documents under the guise of truth, transparency, and "serving the greater good"... but he doesn't let the information speak for itself. He has to go around giving interviews and putting himself in the spotlight as some kind of crusader when, in truth, he's just an arrogant, self-serving asshole airing other people's dirty laundry for sport and a claim to fame. Some anarchist.<br /><br />International diplomacy is a complex and often difficult game which requires a certain amount of latitude to be handled effectively. If the people responsible for this nigh-impossible task have to worry that every single word they say is going to come back to haunt them, how can they be effective in their job? The same can be said of many endeavors, both in politics and business, and it's this which leads me to question the wholesale dumping of what were assumed to be confidential communications. With this latest round of relatively useless (albeit still embarrassing) WikiLeaks, I question whether anybody other than Assange is better off because of it.<br /><br />Does knowing that somebody once labeled Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin as "Batman" truly do anything to elevate truth and transparency? Or is just a way of embarrassing somebody as a stepping-stone to infamy?<br /><br />Exposing wrong-doing as an effort to effect change can be a noble calling. I see <b><i>none</i></b> of this in Julian Assange. He just wants to bring everybody down as a means of elevating himself and his personal agenda (which seems largely aimed at humiliating the USA). If that's 21st century anarchy, then count me out.<br /><br />And next he's going after banks. Well good luck with that. I think he'll find the repercussions of spilling secrets of a government in service of the people is a lot different that spilling secrets of a bank in service of greed. This will inevitably lead to TRUE anarchy being unleashed on Julian Assange's ass.<br /><br />Unfortunately for him, any fame he gets from that will have to be enjoyed from six feet under.Dave2https://www.blogger.com/profile/15376066552003396828noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2540360308013071801.post-59789459562741001632010-12-01T11:14:22.509-06:002010-12-01T11:14:22.509-06:00I'm with you, RW. Totally.I'm with you, RW. Totally.sybil lawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13629349319977383547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2540360308013071801.post-90199035839742476692010-12-01T11:08:58.907-06:002010-12-01T11:08:58.907-06:00I'm right there with you. I mean, please, of C...I'm right there with you. I mean, please, of COURSE diplomatic "agents" have been profiling world leaders. How the hell else are we supposed to know with whom we're dealing? I don't know, seems like a lot of faffing about something very piddling.<br /><br />Personally, I'm looking forward to the announcement Assange made about a bank document leak after the first of the year. That's the one I'm interested in reading. If Wikileaks can survive the online attacks.Coal Miner's Granddaughterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14320077738770745217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2540360308013071801.post-62832755367273749112010-12-01T11:03:57.920-06:002010-12-01T11:03:57.920-06:00I just published this to Facebook and Twitter. Yo...I just published this to Facebook and Twitter. You're welcome. :-) Don't worry, I'm not friends with people who I... WE... don't agree with.Faiqahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14195313677689473346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2540360308013071801.post-61625858351185517222010-12-01T10:43:07.786-06:002010-12-01T10:43:07.786-06:00Yeah, but Jefferson is the Founding Father who mat...Yeah, but Jefferson is the Founding Father who matters the least. At least according to some...people I know. Ugh.Verdant Earlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03139591223231428391noreply@blogger.com